I always find odd that people object to machines making decisions. Whenever you look at why things go wrong, 9 times out 10 it comes down to human error. You can argue that machines make mistakes or someone can sabotage them but how much more so can people become corrupted or act dishonestly? OK, so machines may not reach perfection but they still form a better option than humans. If a machine goes wrong we can fix it and all machines will befit from the improvement; if a human goes wrong then can we fix all humans so they don’t make the same mistake?

The Japanese, so people tell me, have a different attitude to machines than people in the West. They see machines more as friends than something to fear. I think that hi-lights what you say; that culture makes people fear machines.

Im sure there are many reasons why people react negative on “machines making decisions”. In the society we live in now there are many machines that are there to control us or even hurt us. I know that all machines are made by us and also used by us. We are responsible for what machines do. The most developed machine is still our responsibility. Connecting them with satelites in a network that makes computers supirior is still our responsibility. We can never give the responsibility away, but we can give the decisions away. The consequences we have to take anyhow.

Hi Roxanne, is it still possible to come visit in Venus?

In this video the lady ask’s how drastic a change would this be and how do we get people to accept it? I find the answer was never given. Yet an antidote for what he sees the future to be. I know its a total over haul of our current way of life but how do we get people to accept this point of view with out a major world event that forces people to accept it?

It seems like the question that comes up often is based on the fear of computers being in control. Maybe using the analogy of the stealth bomber would help. A stealth bomber is impossible to fly under just the control of a human pilot. It has several systems that makes decisions and take actions that keep the plane in the air. That said, the pilot is still “in control” of the plane even though he/she doesn’t make the thousands of decisions that are required per second to keep the plane in the air.

Kyle I believe one of the videos on this site show that it will take time. Several hundreds years for people to finally realized the monetary system is a pyramid game.

I feel uneasy about computer decision making because I don’t understand how we can ensure the security of the computer software. What if computer programs were hacked by an extreme religious group, primitivists, or the Rothchilds? Don’t we need to be able to alter computer programs to update them? Wouldn’t advanced computer programers form a potentially powerful elite? Any ideas about how these concerns, if they are valid, could be resolved would be appreciated.

i would think that we would have the capability to create very strong firewalls and anti-hack systems by that point so that it wouldnt b possible for a human to do it. Also, im sure that after a few generations of living in a civilization such as this one that no one would want to do that anyways, y would you, you would have everything you needed already

Thanks for your answer Keith. It was specifically the transition period I was most concerned about. However I think I failed to grasp Jacque’s concept fully (there’s so much to grasp). If I extrapolate correctly machine benignancy will be designed into all systems as much as possible. Conditions can also be monitored by anyone anywhere in the world so problems can be identified quickly. Monitoring of vital systems can be carried out by multiple sources and methods. Contingency plans will also be developed in advance. In addition I presume secure technologies, structures, and processes already exist to safeguard the security of military and banking computer networks from insider infiltration or corruption – no doubt these could be adapted and improved.

I’m still not sure how the formation of a technical elite could be adverted but I have heard Jacque mention he’s given thought to this issue. Sorry I’m so ignorant, but I want to be able to understand The Venus Project concept in detail and discuss it confidently with people. The Venus Project is amazingly important if we are going to create a world fit for people. Thanks again Keith.

Is all this talk about machines making decisions a rhetorical mistake? As I understand Jacque’s ideas the decisions are made by applying a principle — to embrace attitudes, values, technologies, social structures etc, that lead us, the world’s population, away from scarcity. Technology simply helps us to make informed choices and move in the right direction. The beauty of stepping away from scarcity and pursuing abundance is that it can be expressed as a formula:

needs < resources + technology + use.

Surely it would make rhetorical sense to emphasize that decisions would be based on this principle, (rather than the profit principle) and that technology will be used to help us arrive at effective decisions.

Jacque talks about a butcher’s scale making a decision. I find it peculiar to see it that way. The scale merely provides information which is the basis on which the butcher and shopper proceed. Semantics? Perhaps, but how things are expressed has a great effect on how people respond to them.

I was discussing The Venus Project with a friend. She asked, “I love gardening, will I still be able to have a garden?” Should I have replied, “The computers will decide.” or “Everything’s based on the principle of avoiding scarcity. There will definitely still be gardens. If there’s enough land for everyone who wants to have a garden to have one, you can have your own, but if there isn’t we’ll need to share.” I chose the later to which she replied, “Good, you can help me do the weeding.”

I always fear that I haven’t fully grasped Jaqcue’s brilliant ideas, and so I misunderstand things.

If I may continue, when a machine makes an action, that action is based on the principles and goals that we have put into the software. If a machine put nutrients into the soil that is because of the goals we have established. If, for example, a computer stopped the production of wooden chopsticks, that would be to reserve precious timber resources, perhaps to avoid scarcity in a higher priority area. In other words the machines, however sophisticated, are merely implementing our goals, based on the principle of avoiding scarcity — and they are doing so without favoritism.

The way I see it the decision to avoid scarcity is ours, the civilization’s, the machines are implementing and helping us to achieve that goal.

So if we want our wooden chopsticks, and don’t like that the machine stopped producing them, we either have to introduce scarcity into a higher priority area and return to our current set of problems, or find a solution so that wooden chopsticks could again be produced without introducing scarcity.

Isn’t presenting machines as decision making misleading and counterproductive? The civilization the Venus project wants to create, as I understand it, is based on the our decision, to establish a principle of avoiding scarcity. Shouldn’t we talk about machines IMPLEMENTING our decision, our principle? That seems much less scary.

the thing is computers cannot deal with social sciences. Human condition is too complex to be explained by monocausal relationships and positive science epistemology.

If computers are making decisions what is the role of the interdisciplinary teams?

If the interdisciplinary teams are involved in decision making, how can they be prevented from forming elitist networks or introducing bias?

Designing the Future describes the interdisciplinary teams as consisting of qualified individuals. Doesn’t the duality of qualified and unqualified individuals form the basis of elitism?

I’m in love with Jacque’s vision and concept. I’m just searching for answers to riddles still pin-balling around in my head.

Any solutions welcome. Roxanne, Jacque, anyone?

It seems 2 groups of people will be needed to get this going:

Those with abilities.

Those willing to make small donations of money (which should be everyone)

Perhaps buying up a whole small town out west would be a good place to start, prefer an area that does not have many hurricanes or tornados. This way you run the whole town and can decide no more property taxes will have to be paid in that town and all school is free for people of all ages. Also there will be no zoning restrictions so we can build what we want.

Lets start with the 2nd group: Those willing to make small donations of money (which should be everyone)

There are 143,000 people here, if everyone just donated $1 a month there would be another $143,000 a month to get this going. Main thing here is having a group of members, maybe 1 from each state, watching over where the money is going as i think is is the BIGGEST reason this has not moved faster.

Once the money is accounted for i’m sure just about everyone could afford to donate $1 a week x 143,000 members x 4.3 weeks in a month = $614,000 a month = $7,436,000 a year

Then if everyone could donate $1 a day x 143,000 members = $52,195,000 a year! This is something just about every member can do.

i heard there are actually over 2 million people interested, imagine what $1 a month, week, or day from all of those people could do.

If that can’t move this nothing will and it’s all just a dream.

Group 1: Those with abilities.

Here we will need people with the abilities to get the project built. This includes Architects, Engineers, Scientists, building trades people (carpenters, electricians, plumbers etc.) and whoever else will be needed to get the work done.

These people can be hired from the group and paid with the donations.

All supplies to build the City will be paid for with the donations also.

When the first residential buildings are ready we will need a way to determine who gets to live in the project first. i think Jacque, Roxanne, and Peter are the first people allowed in, then the people that helped build the project should be given top consideration with the condition that they agree to help build other Venus Project cities, then perhaps some sort of lottery of all members that donated $1 each and every day (or $365 up front for the year etc.). Also the Teachers, Food Growers, Maintenance people etc. that will be needed to run the City would need to live there.

This does not cover everything but it is a start.

Any comments/ideas?

If everyone is serious the first City can be totally completed in less than 2 years.

i came up with a quote a few years ago that many people i have told like:

“The only reason we are not doing something is we are not doing it!”

or “The only reason thinks are not getting done is we are not doing them!”

As Nike says – DO IT!

Everybody is welcome to join the interdisciplinary teams as i understand it, no interview or application is required to join the team if your less qualified, just the will to learn and to contribute to society. The less qualified individuals can join the team, do research and ask the more qualified individuals questions etc. The more the less qualified individual learns, less of a gap between more qualified and less qualified will exist until eventually everybody is on the same level in terms of knowledge.

Take for example Alex Plank, he in theory could be considered an elitist but he’s not as seen by a quick bio on his website http://alexplank.com/profile.php

“Alex Plank is the 22 year old guy behind WrongPlanet.net, the incredibly popular site for individuals with Asperger’s Syndrome and Autism. Both Alex and Wrong Planet have been featured by The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, and Good Morning America. Wrong Planet has more than 22,000 registered members and its discussion forums contain more than one million messages.
Alex is a student at George Mason University majoring in Film and Video Studies. His hobbies and interests include the Internet, writing, acting, and video production. For Alex hobbies aren’t just something to pass the time; he believes in aggressively pursuing his interests in a way that will better the world.”

This quote (For Alex hobbies aren’t just something to pass the time; he believes in aggressively pursuing his interests in a way that will better the world.”) sounds pretty similar to a quote by Albert Enstein that Jacque mentions in one of his videos. It is theorized that Albert E. had Asperger’s Syndrome or at the very least is a visual thinker instead of a verbal thinker.

The Wrong Planet website now has approx 26,000 members both active and inactive members that share their knowledge to the world for free. http://www.wrongplanet.net

Interesting reply Dallas. Thank you. I can imagine interdisciplinary teams being open and working on a cooperative rather than a hierarchical basis.

Confusion in terminology, which both inhibits people from understanding The Venus Project and being sure of their understanding seems an important problem to resolve. In this discussion we have confusion about both “qualified” and “decision making” to name two key concepts. A movement glossary should provide a useful communication and education tool. I’m not aware that one already exists. Is there a lexicographer in the movement interested in performing this task? If not it should be within my abilities given cooperation by Venus literate members. Lexicographers step forward?

I came up with a circular flow chart, which unfortunately I can’t paste into these comments. Still it’s simple enough to follow — there are only four stations:

North) Human and ecological material needs.

Used to establish:

East) Principles for scarcity reduction.

Used to identify:

South) Computer calculated solutions.

Used to create and distribute:

West) Machine-made goods.

Developed to satisfy:

N) Human and ecological material needs.

If this makes sense within the Venus Project framework it follows that:

Humans provide needs and moral discretion/direction (north and east).
Computers make science-based calculations, analyze, and recommend/select solutions (south).
Machines provide production and distribution (west).

Human needs (including need adaptability) as well as human values play key roles in this schema. Needs and principles are decisions.
The role of computers is not decision making but analysis and scientific solution selection.
The role of machines is production and distribution.

Another quick idea, how about instead of coming up with reasons that the Venus Project cannot work, we focus on how to make it work.

Sound good?

Peace

Michael, if someone had been able to spot the iceberg sooner the Titanic might have reached New York.

Bucky Fuller: “If humans are not required to earn a living, they take on the tasks our world really needs to have done.”

Hi nimbsky

The first question Donald Trump asks himself before getting involved in a project is what can go wrong here? Then he figures if the problems can be overcome. If they can he continues.

i think the same way.

What i’m saying here is i think there has been enough talk, it’s time to take action and get a city built. If we can send a man to the moon and back building a self sustaining city should be a cake walk.

The first city does not have to look exactly like Jacque has imagined. Just build with current technologies so all energy costs will be free for it’s citizens. Have electric transportation etc. We can make future cities look more like Jacque has planned but we need to start somewhere.

Jacque and Roxanne did most of if not all the work on building their little area in Venus Florida. i’m sure 2 million plus people can build a self sustaining city to show others some progress after all these years.

Peace

It is a good concept that machines would be the best decision makers in the future. It is worring that we are so far removed from this at the moment. When we have such far reaching decisions that need to be made now! The decisions being tabled at the G20 for example will have big implications for the future. Such as money being borrowed in hugh amounts certain countrys on with what consequences? But it seems that nothing inspiring has transgressed at this meeting. All that seems to be done is working out ways to hold on to the present, business as usual. Not how to create a better future.

sorry poor sentence ” such as money being borrowed in hugh amounts by some countries. Are the consquences on these actions really being explored fully?

Perhaps TVP can move forward with co housing projects for now.

Here is some info: http://www.cohousing.org/

Jacque and Roxanne perhaps you can make your current location a cohousing community and sell some of your current buildings (condo style) or build additional ones for $100,000-$150,000 each. This would give you more money to work with.

What’s the idea behind this comments section? I assumed it was to enable discussion about the ideas being presented. We have Michael’s exciting ideas for establishing the first city, and my concern about terminology and communication of the project’s concepts. There doesn’t seem to be any authoritative feed back or explanations. Others have also asked questions that remain unanswered.

I would like answers to my questions so that I can understand the project better. If I understand the issues I may be able to contribute my skills and energy. Are there any people who have a full grasp of the project who would like to respond to some of the issues being raised?

i posted this on facebook group, thought i would share it here:

Luc wrote ”
First i think that in order to show people that it works, is to build a city where a community can live together without money while at the same time maintaining a high standard of living and doing all of that with the least amount of waste and pollution.”

Until the whole country is a RBE it will still take money to start and run the small communities. First need to buy the land, then build self sustaining houses. Clothes, cars, phone, taxes, insurance etc still need to be paid for with money.

The only way to get these communities going for free is start a tax free charity type organization and collect donations from others.

Perhaps the first communities can be made up of people that earn all/most of their money from internet businesses or other jobs that allow them to work from home.

Also some people wrote about co housing as hiding away from the world. Not true. We are not hiding, this is not Wayco or some other cult, we are just helping each other out in the small communities. Everyone is free to travel and have friends outside the cohousing community.

As David mentioned these small cohousing groups would probably work best with people of the same religions and/or interests. There is an artist cohousing community in New Hampshire somewhere. They sell their art to keep the community going. Maybe opening a small business in each community to sell items made in the community can help pay all the costs of running it for others also.

i like New Hampshire and visit often, especially the lake region and North Conway areas. If anyone in those areas wanted to start a cohousing community i might be interested in joining. Another idea for areas like New Hampshire is to build small cabins etc and offer inexpensive vacation rentals to help pay for the community.

Peace

Another site to check out:

http://www.naturalhomemagazine.com/

Peace

Anyone in Florida interested in co housing check out:

http://www.freewebs.com/gaiagrove/permaculturevision.htm

Their ideas sound great

Peace

Without money, the interest’s conflict will be of how are the priorities in the society to distribute the resources (human hours, natural resources, goods).

So, decisions like: Use hours to produce more cars or more “ipods”, or more whatever, knowing that all for everyone is just not possible (including more education, more health, more kind of food) must to be made… If everyone can have everything, probably everyone would like to have everything.

So, 1) How the computers will take this kind of decisions?

If the demand causes that some kind of profession is more demanded, and then a person who studied this profession have to work much more hours to the average, this person will have some kind of extra incentive? Or he/she will have less hours for his/her personal life with the same benefits of others working less?

nimbsky :
Interesting reply Dallas. Thank you. I can imagine interdisciplinary teams being open and working on a cooperative rather than a hierarchical basis.
Confusion in terminology, which both inhibits people from understanding The Venus Project and being sure of their understanding seems an important problem to resolve. In this discussion we have confusion about both “qualified” and “decision making” to name two key concepts. A movement glossary should provide a useful communication and education tool. I’m not aware that one already exists. Is there a lexicographer in the movement interested in performing this task? If not it should be within my abilities given cooperation by Venus literate members. Lexicographers step forward?

My definition of qualified (which will differ from everybody else’s in some slight ways) I too would like input from others, we could all work together to come to an understanding as to what qualified and decision making mean.
Some one who has specific knowledge in an area of interest (learned in public school/post secondary or mostly self taught, even though i don’t understand the term self taught, even though somebody isn’t directly teaching you as in public school and post secondary, you are still being taught indirectly by reading others published work/books/movies/blogs etc ) and has spent many years studying that area of interest and has more concrete understanding of said knowledge as opposed to rote memorization.

Decision Making Definition.
The decision making by computers/machines would still be an extension of human decision making. The computer could send out a message to every media outlet in the new society proposing a set of problems that are arising with possible solutions for every human to know about, all humans then have 24 hours to respond/vote on one of the options. Majority wins the vote, the results of the vote is then sent to the proper interdisplinary team and they work on putting the solution voted on into action.

Speaking of schools with todays technologies most classes can be taught at home from the tv or internet. This would only require 1 teacher to teach tens of thousands to millions of people. Since the parents will have a lot of free time they can be with their children to help them to learn.

Even today we do not need all these teachers and college campuses for most types of learning. Put the teachings on a dvd and let each person learn at their own pace. There can be a testing center for each phase of each subject etc at local libraries. The only time one needs to attend a class would be for example people studying to become a doctor and only for classes where they are actually working on a human body.

The only reason this is not happening now is the teachers unions, but more and more classes are being taught online every year. So less and less teachers will be needed every year.

Colleges are nothing more than big businesses. There is no need to charge people thousands of dollars a year when the same info can be taught on DVD’s that cost less than a dollar each to make. How many thousands of great minds are being wasted because they cannot afford college?

Peace

i posted this on the zeitgeist group, thought i would share it here:

David

i do not know if anything will change.

From what i heard Roxanne say they have not made a lot of money and they both need outside jobs just to survive and work on TVP. Thats why i said to move this thing along if everyone (over 2 million interested people) donated just $1 each one time, that would give them over 2 million dollars. If we do not see anything major happen with that money we do not donate any more. Even if they blow the money it only costs us $1 each, i am sure we all waste that much every week somewhere.

Personally i think Jacque should win the Nobel Peace prize for his efforts to help all humanity, which awards around 1 million dollars to the winner.

Thats why i am going to send Roxanne and Jacque $10 each on May 15 as a birthday present, just because of the ideas they have shared with the world and the work they have done to help humanity. Since it is a birthday present i do not care what they do with the money, buy a pizza or put it towards TVP, their choice.

i read they do not want to share the plans for buildings because they do not want anyone stealing them and copywriting them. The only way they could do this is if Jacque does not have them copywrited already. The only reason i can think of that the plans are not copywrited is they do not have the money to get them copywrited.

So if everyone sent them $1 each and they do not copywrite and share their current plans (by sharing i mean they can sell them) with others or get some major things done for TVP, we all stop wasting our time and move along on other projects. There are thousands of other charities that would love our help. If they do make some big movements forward we continue to send $1 a month each or to save stamps and envelopes just send $12 each for the year.

Another idea is to start a Twitter acct for TVP where we can each write short ideas for everyone to read. If it requires a larger post we can link back to a thread here on facebook or any other site.

The more i read about cohousing the more i like it as a way to get groups of people self sustaining so that when an RBE comes into effect, there will already be a lot of people living together sharing what they have.

If we do build a large city like Jacque has imagined, one way to do it is sell the residential spaces as condos, this way instead of donations people are buying into a huge cohousing community and are getting something for their money. Yes the first people in this and other cities will need to have money and be willing to buy into the Venus Project cohousing Condo development. But until an RBE is here, it will take money to get things most things done.

Peace

I am creating long-term success for generations to come. What’s next? Bucky Fuller: “Take the initiative. Go to work, and above all co-operate and don’t hold back on one another or try to gain at the expense of another. Any success in such lopsidedness will be increasingly short-lived.”

A creative commons licence doesn’t cost anything and it provides copyright for the creator as far as i understand.
http://creativecommons.org/about/what-is-cc

@Dallas

Dallas i agree, it does not take a lot of money to protect your ideas, Jacque is one of the smartest persons i have ever heard, but even he does not know everything. i hope he sees that it will take a team to achieve his dream.

For now i think the best way to start is with small cohousing communities. The more i read about them the more i like them (www.cohousing.org) We would still be using the current money system but once TVP is in full effect we will already be accustomed to sharing labor and living in harmony.

Peace

Two things I’d like to comment on here.

The first is the use of the term ‘decisions’, where the technology makes them for us. Personally, I feel that it’s too harsh a word to be used this early in the development of the project. Many of us know exactly what is meant by it (and most agree that it IS the most appropriate term when used literally). But those who are just being introduced to these ideas can easily misinterpret the meaning based on the connotations it tends to arouse within their money based thinking. Perhaps we should consider toning down the use of this word until more folks are fully prepared to explain it in a non-threatening manner.

Secondly, I’m going to cheat a bit here and re-paste a comment I made on another thread. This is meant for those who feel like little is being done towards the goal.

All of the points you raise here are incredibly valid and I would truly be a madman if I were to tell you that every aspect of this concept has already been worked out ahead of time and all we need to do is to ‘plug ourselves in’ and enjoy the new life. I’m sure those statements are not exactly comforting, but maybe this next part will be.

Over at the Zeitgeist Movement site, we are working to establish forums where these and other questions can be posed, considered, knocked around and maybe even answered before we ever get to the point where they need more solid answers. There are various groups forming of brain stormers working on issues such as the Communication Team (focusing on how to best introduce these concepts to the masses), the Creative Team (new ideas for improving civilization as a whole), the Technology Team (for people with scientific backgrounds which could be related to social development for a Resource Based Economy) and the Administration Team (which works on producing the tools we have seen that helped lead us here. i.e. the DVD’s, websites, etc.). In addition, there are lot of other subtopics you’ll find useful in really seeing some of the serious work being done towards reaching our collective goal of seeing this through.

If this aspect of the project interests you, here’s a link to the main page of the forums. Feel free to lurk all over the site to see some of the happenings that are already in progress. If you’re so inclined, become a member of one or more of the teams and chip in any and all ideas you have that might help the cause.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=1905

I sure do look forward to having you there, regardless of any contribution.

Interesting concept! I love it and can’t believe that I have been subjugated to being against this idea through the media, movies, and other conditioning, but you must admit, these elites that have promoted and created this society for their benefit are some crafty, thoughtful, and highly intellectual people! They are very formidable foes indeed!

What we need to do is have a gathering of the minds a meeting if you will, and get the ideas put into motion. We can use their monetary system against them to make money. Financial planners and others to help with the monetary part to get this started. Be we need to get together and create something. The so Called loan can be used to get property and then not be foreclosed because of the governments precedent laws. If that man could get his house out of foreclosure because the bank Gave nonexistent money than I am sure we
could find a way to get this started.